Talk:Loptr/@comment-1971498-20141231170221/@comment-1661895-20150101171932
I'll leave this final post in order to summarise my thoughts on the matter because it's clear we're seeing two different interpretations and that's perfectly alright. But it also means that we're probably not going to convince each other of the other being correct! As for what that means for the page, I suggest the editing of information to possibly fit with both ideas, perhaps mentioning that Loptr's real control over the affairs of the angels and other parties are ambiguous at best since it's near impossible to tell at this point with some of the points you've rightly made. One of Loptr's lines to Bayonetta when he meets her as his younger self is revealing that he knows what Loki is and what he is capable of. He says he knows that Loki escaped to the future and that he can't let him have "them" (the Eyes, since his previous line was referring to wanting the Eyes as they were his). Loptr later explains in the final showdown that he was merely waiting for Loki to show up again so he could take that power for himself, all the while growing more powerful thanks to absorbing the evil intents of humans. That strength would eventual become so powerful that Loptr thought himself able to see everything, especially with his powers as the Prophetic one ("I couldn't use the Sovereign power to control the Eyes, so instead, I used the evil hearts of humans to begin to retrieve the power of the ancient god. And all that remained was taking back the one power I do not yet have"). The very idea that Loptr knows what Loki is and how he has the Sovereign power demonstrates he knows the danger Loki can pose to him. However, Loptr believed himself to have planned his entire scheme out with rigorous detail given how he made sure that events would follow his ideals over the course of 500 years. And with Loki lacking his memories, it should've been an easy steal if Loki were quickly brought to him and not allowed to realise his true potential. But that belief in thinking he was a god is what caused his downfall, a moment of thinking he had triumphed and achieved his goals only to have forgotten what his original self could do. Loptr believed himself to have won but as the Journal's Echoes describes it; ''...in the end, not being a fully realised god, he couldn't forsee everything." As for not knowing of Loki's trump card, once again to me, Loptr's lack of foresight is what caused his downfall rather than not knowing Loki's power. He already had shown earlier he knew exactly what Loki was capable of with his Sovereign power and that he knew it was Loki's influence of good when they were Aesir that created that contingency plan of the Sovereign power in the first place. But at the same time, Loptr had twisted his perception of Aesir's role as a god of the human realm into being a dictator-like one, mostly likely thanks to the evil he had absorbed over the course of 500 years, hence his belief that he was the only true ruler of the human realm there should ever be. The trump card worked because he wasn't the true god that he thought he was and couldn't forsee it in a moment where he believed himself to have succeeded in his plan. As I've stated before, from my perspective, Glamor's very dialogue states that Loptr is waiting for Loki, escalating it to being a demand when it captures him the second time they meet. The phrasing of Glamor's lines and its actions afterwards only imply that it was directly commanded to make Loki come with it, eventually taking him by force when Loki resisted. It's confusion to Bayonetta getting involved is reflected in the Journal's Echoes where it only links back into my lack of foresight suggestion. "Yet in the end, not being a fully realised god, he couldn't forsee everything. An Umbra Witch crossed paths with God himself, as if fate had miraculously aligned. The two came together to stop Loptr's plan, in turn saving the world." '' Loki's lack of co-operation makes him seem merely 'bothersome' to Glamor since he isn't a huge threat on his own given how easily he is flung to the side and subsequently captured and lacking his memories of his true nature. But Bayonetta's extraordinary abilities are what put Loptr's plans in jeopardy. Glamor questions both times why Bayonetta is getting involved and each battle with it steadily grows more and more out of control the more she fights (the street being destroyed and seizing a building between Glamor's claws, the eventual rip inside the water cyclone and the destruction of huge debris in order to hit her). It's as if Glamor is trying to get rid of her by any means necessary in case she sticks a wrench in affairs (culminating in the grand finale of the sudden trip to Paradiso). Because of this, I would suggest there is nothing major to make the assumption Glamor was trying to mislead anyone. Since the angel only appears in two parts of the game, I personally believe that the information presented in these scenes is all the information about Glamor's motivations that are available and needed. To me, it makes more sense to go from that rather than trying to speculate how travelling to Paradiso (something that happens extremely frequently throughout the normal stages of both ''Bayonetta games without a real motivation or provocation by any particular party) means that there was some sort of deception going on. Your point about Balder is sound, but I feel it also adds to my interpretation of events (which is what makes this discussion rather funny since everything can give weight to every idea!). From my perspective, Loptr didn't really guide Balder and instead specifically manipulated his high emotional state in order to hunt Loki down, using the ruse of Loki being responsible for Rosa's death in order to make the Sage do what he wanted ("I know the one who destroyed your world. I know the one who destroyed your love."). Both the angels and Balder are free to inflict any harm against Loki and possibly kill him, further reflected in how the angels do not care if Loki survives any attempts at capture. As I stated before, and how you did when suggesting the reason behind Balder's free reign of inflicting force, there is nothing to suggest that Loptr couldn't take the Sovereign power from Loki's body once it was brought to him, dead or alive (something you also say in explaining Loptr's attempt to make Balder kill Loki's mortal body). I didn't mean to say there was other means he could've gotten apart from having Loki brought to him (poor phrasing on my part for which I apologise). I was saying that to Loptr, whether Loki is alive or not doesn't matter. As a container for what he wants, he'll get the power either way if Loki is brought to him and his survival doesn't matter As for the last point to summarise how the angels are actively trying to help Loptr or are at least doing his will, you need to think back to the flashback when Balder realises he has been deceived by Fortitudo in starting the Witch Hunts. Pay close attention to what Fortitudo actually says: "The Trinity Of Realities belongs only to Jubileus, The Creator. For the world to be reborn, the Eyes of the World, the Eyes of the Overseer...The Eyes of God must not remain in human hands." In a later line, he also says that the Eyes have to return to their "rightful place", mostly likely with the side of the angels who believe Jubileus is the one who should control everything. This is why their allegiances follow Loptr. Loptr's plan involves gaining the power to control both of the Eyes and use their power to rule over everything. And, as stated in my original post, that's the entire thought process of the angels in the first game as well. They're well aware of the power that the Eyes can unleash and they believe that only they should have them. If Loptr's plan involves bringing together both of the Eyes, one of which they had thought had been lost forever, then it's reasonable to assume that they are only falling in line with his plans in order to then take the Eyes for themselves. Both Fortitudo and the attitude of Balder's corrupted self show this continuity, as well as Valiance explaining how it is the "greatest of blessings" that Bayonetta has arrived in the same area as the newly revived Right Eye/Balder. You are probably right in saying that Loptr was not actively controlling them, but from their past actions and statements, it seems more likely that the angels were going along with his plans in order to then sabotage them for their own selfish goals later. They did so before during the Witch Hunts, they nearly suceeded in doing so in the original Bayonetta, I see no reason why they wouldn't try to do so again. But, as a disclaimer, you are also right in a lot of the points you've stated as well given how a lot of the detail of the situation regarding Loptr's plans is not explained in great detail in any of the in-game scenes or notes. In reference to your original request of changing information on the page, I would suggest a rewording to try and explain how Loptr's true influence on the angels and events can be disputed to either theory given the points both of us have made here.